Guest Jim Durbin talks with the Jobsync team about recent job board changes at Indeed and how to get more ROI form your job board spend.
FULL TRANSCRIPT (Machine Generated)
Speaker 1 (00:00):
Next on the Jobsync Round table job board, ROI with Alex Murphy from Joby and special guest Jim Durbin, the Indeed Whisperer. Enjoy the audio.
Speaker 2 (00:18):
Look at these beards. Look at, look at Alex's grayness, man. It's, you
Speaker 3 (00:21):
Know, it is so gray. It's almost translucent, so, you know, you know, you can barely see it.
Speaker 4 (00:27):
So, Caroline, before we got on this morning, gentlemen, so I'm Freshing clean, but thanks. So, hey, good morning everybody. We've got quite a few people trickling in, um, talking about our beards and Matt Charney and looking beautiful. So thanks all for coming on today. Happy pride month. Happy June, happy summer. I'm Lex Kramer. I'm the marketing manager here at Jobs Inc. Um, if you're familiar, then you see this face once a month. Today with me is Alex Murphy, c e o, here at Jobs Inc. And our, our special mystery guest, Jim Durbin, who's the Director of Recruitment Marketing at P S G Global Solutions. Leah Daniels was going to join us, but she had a couple mishaps with some airplanes. So she is, I think, landing and taxing as we speak, so she may or may not be on, so we'll keep our eyes peeled for that.
(01:17):
So I'm gonna hand it over to Alex, who's gonna do a quick job seek intro. Jim's gonna talk about himself for a minute, and then we're gonna dive in. Today we're talking about job boards, we're talking about all those crazy acronyms, all the shit Indeed's been doing, and ZipRecruiter and all across the board. So if you wanna jump into this conversation, you can see your cameras are hot, your mics are hot, jump in. We want you to be a part of things. If you're nervous and you don't wanna just jump in, you can raise your hand and I can call on you like old school teacher style, or we do like to say that there's two conversations happening, one happening on camera and one happening in the chat. So feel free to communicate over there as well. We'll be keeping an eye on things. I'm done talking, Alex, take it from here.
Speaker 3 (02:02):
Thanks, Lex. Thanks everybody for joining us. Um, to give you a, just a brief headline on what Jobs Incs all about, uh, we've been, uh, building a platform that helps really large, complicated enterprise organizations hire at scale. And we do this by creating integrations between the companies, um, and the systems that those companies use to recruit. So think ATSs and CRMs on one side and job boards and candidate marketplaces on the other. And then we build automations, moving data back and forth between those systems, eliminating the manual work that people do, uh, that drives up performance of recruitment marketing, uh, first and foremost. And so that really is kind of the fit for the day. Uh, like Lex said, I'm really excited to have Jim here. Jim is a, uh, really an expert subject matter expert in the space of establishing and building recruitment marketing programs and plans. So Jim, thank you for being here. Maybe you could take a minute and just give everybody some background on what you do every day, what the R p O landscape looks like, what ps what you're doing at psg, and maybe some background, some, some places you've been along the way.
Speaker 2 (03:15):
Sure. Uh, let's start with the background. Uh, I started at staffing, it's in my blood, so all you in staffing, I'm with you. Then I went into head hunting and then I did corporate, and then I ran a marketing agency with social media and then I ended up in R P O. So a lot of times when we argue online, we don't realize that recruiting is vast and there's many different kinds. And I've been lucky enough to be in all four major kinds of recruiting, uh, full life cycle stuff. So everything from finding people to talking candidates to what happens after the fact. Today I work on advertising. Uh, in the last four or five years, I have been digging into how to generate, I know job boards are dead, but they're not. How do we generate candidates at high volume? How do we convert people and what are the similarities of what we're seeing now?
(03:56):
And what I went through 10, 15 years ago with the marketing agency, that's what's so exciting. So our question is always, how do we get candidates? How do we convert them? What's happening with our tech as we grow and become more of a mature industry? TA's really only about 20 years old. What's next? And what do we need to be doing, uh, short and long term to find our people to survive and, uh, and ultimately, um, how to get our data up to the CEO so that we're respected and not losing half of our industry every 10 years.
Speaker 4 (04:24):
You scared me a little bit, Jim, when you said job boards are dead. I thought this is gonna be a really quick conversation.
Speaker 2 (04:29):
<laugh> Well, that, that's the problem. If you're a headhunter finding CEOs, yeah, you're not using job boards. If you're finding high-end tech people, you are using some, but you should be using for research what they don't get. But you're not just posting that whole post and pray thing. People make fun of it. They don't realize how valuable it is. Like anything done, right? It matters. You know, we're not the, we're not the buggy. I mean, the truth is we hire a lot more people and it's just a snobbery. 77% of that of the, of the folks still light industrial. It's not all tech. So it's your perspective when you put a hundred thousand people to work in a year, you have to use job boards. And uh, I think someone who only takes five or six placements a year might think snobby about it. But you can't, you can't do that with sourcing. You can't do that with direct sourcing and customized hand emails to everybody. Don't. I mean, you can, but yeah, they're not dead. They're not dead. We'll prove it.
Speaker 3 (05:29):
What, what do you think the underlying reason is for, for why people have been calling it dead? When, when did this come up? When, when did it
Speaker 2 (05:37):
Sno? So if you look at the history of recruiting, you had mri and so those people had to pick up a phone book, call someone, tell them what recruiting was, convince them that they're gonna give them money if you give a candidate and then call the candidate and tell their candidate what was going on. And so there was a, there was a level, right? Like you get in and then they have the staffing firms who in as a recruiter, and then you become a sales manager and then you become a branch manager and eventually you quit and start your own firm or you become a headhunter. So we've got these class levels inside of recruiting, the sourcing became alarm, getting to move out. So in our heads, we're constantly trying to justify that we're better. I mean, are you a recruiter or are you a talent acquisition representative?
(06:16):
They, when sales are your bdr. And so what happens is they say job boards are dead because individually it makes them sound like they're clients. Oh, I don't use Monster. Oh no, no, no. I use my super secret heirs techniques to find people. And it just, that has vestigial tales. 15 years later, you use whatever's available. I used to make a hundred thousand dollars a year off Indeed as a head hunter. I'm not feeling bad about doing that because I used it in ways that others didn't. Why would you mock a source that makes you so much money? And the answer is, they're just trying to make themselves differentiate themselves as better in the marketplace. Shame on them. You can't make fun of people,
Speaker 3 (06:54):
Right? It's not a tomato, it's a tomato after all. <laugh>. So, right. So what you doing? What you doing today? That's, that's working really well.
Speaker 2 (07:03):
Um,
Speaker 3 (07:04):
What's the top of the list?
Speaker 2 (07:05):
The big ones? So I've been talking to a lot, you know, people following in stuff on LinkedIn, like all the changes that happened in, in programmatic, the we're no longer recruiters market. Lots of TA professionals have been laid off. So I've been talking to a lot of people in positions that I was, which are recruitment advertising because the budgets have gone up. Um, suddenly is a thing. Executives have no clue what's going on. They didn't have to think about their spend a couple years ago. Now you have people with million and $2 million budgets when it used to be a hundred thousand. It's a huge difference. So what I'm seeing people do, it's been fascinating because I look at it like you do Alex, or like some of the folks that you know, uh, deal just with programmatic, we're all looking at it as, oh, it's the algorithm.
(07:48):
Let me craft a fancy campaign. So I love doing that cuz it's fun to crack algorithms. But the truth is that you can get the same kind of results going and fixing your process. So I'm watching people that go in that are cutting their spend 20, 30% cuz they're able to pay attention to the details. They're focusing on the job posting, they're focusing on, uh, people analytics and saying, this manager got 27 resumes and never called them. They're the reason my costs are so high. So what they're basically starting to look inside the organization, um, they're looking inside the organization and they're saying, oh my God, I hate 30 things. Notification. They're looking inside and they're making changes to what, to how we approach candidates, which ultimately leads to that word that we haven't heard yet, which is conversion. Um, conversion is the answer. And this is, let's give you guys a plug.
(08:37):
So I like job saying it's not about the overall top. This is how many applicants, how many of those applicants that I turned into submittals and how many of them were wasted and how many con in contact. And that's exactly what happened in B2B in 2010. It no longer was about clicks and budget. It was how many people are actually buying or turning into our services Is it's, it's not just about the top level numbers anymore. You can't say I grew my audience 10%. They're like, great. And what happened? Now we're in the what happened phase of ta, which is the exciting part because it means that you're not wasting your life on a report. You're actually putting people to work.
Speaker 3 (09:13):
So it's interesting you bring up, you bring up, uh, call it consumer or just general regular marketing if you will. And the, the old saying, right, the wannamaker saying is half of your advertising is wasted. You just don't know which half enter Google and Google Analytics and you can start to actually create some attribution. So in our, in our writeup for today's talk, we talked about wanting to kind of get into the acronyms and, and the things, right? So the cost per this and the cost per that. What, what are the ones that, what are those key metrics that you really focus in on to understand performance, uh, to then kind of lead you towards what changes to make? What, what are your key metrics?
Speaker 2 (09:59):
So, um, it used to be CPC because, and specifically just for Indeed and for the programmatic, because they let us play in that space that's now moving over to CPA and cps. And that's cost per application or cost per application start. So one is you wanna know your total budget, the easy ways to look at your total budget, your total hires, and now you know your true cost per hire. Cuz that's what clients are asking for now. But to get to that, you have to learn to break down the cost of everything you do. So for me it's, I'm not gonna go cost per advertising higher, but I need to know every source, every job board, even uh, my website. And I understand is my website generating organic traffic or I sending money to it? I need to know what's the cost on the advertising side, but also what's the cost on the sourcing side and then what's the cost on the free side?
(10:45):
What's my cost for referrals? Supposedly zero. But like what's the actual cost for hire across the organization? Um, once you begin to know that, which a lot of companies still don't have, you can break it down. Our problem is we tend to be stuck on looking at our dashboards. You need to be inside your ats. It's not just a matter of here's, I spent $10,000 on ZipRecruiter, I have a thousand candidates that came in. So that's $10 per, it's okay, how much of that did you spend? Did you not contact those candidates? How much is wasted spend? You have to know your actual budget and then what happened to it on the other end? And that's where we're struggling right now. Um, cuz they're looking at total budgets for the year and that that doesn't work. You have to segment and start digging in and get good at your spreadsheets and Power BI ain't gonna fix anything. So, um,
Speaker 3 (11:36):
You're, you're kind of touching in on, you know, this concept around narrowing or focusing your spend on outcomes, right? And like what, what actually took place? So there's, there's a lot of talk about cost per qualified applicant. You're actually putting a big point of emphasis on, you know, it's not just a matter of whether or not the candidate would or the application was qualified for this role, it's also did we do anything with it, right?
Speaker 2 (12:11):
Yeah. How do you, how do we even qualify an applicant?
Speaker 3 (12:14):
Say again,
Speaker 2 (12:15):
That said, we qualify applicants. That's something we use to talk to our executives. Like they wanna know that's, uh, are you doing your job question? I don't wanna hear about applicants. I'm gonna go further. Well how about we call the qualified applicants? Oh, well that sounds good, but who's doing the qualifications? And if you take 10 days to call them, they're not applicants anymore, they're just ghost. But our numbers still look good. So a lot of times we're still justifying our, our work with things like qualified applicants without actually digging into it. We we're obsessed with, uh, we're obsessed with managing, uh, through spreadsheets, which is a terrible way to do it. Uh, is we have to actually dig in by the individual manager by the individual job. And, and that's just, just difficult to do, right? How many processes does it take? Um, it's like the problem with attribution, Alex, if someone goes to my website and applies, but it's cuz they saw a job at Indeed but didn't apply Indeed and said, came to my website.
(13:12):
There's no way to, to do attribution for that. There's only to justify that. But that's one of the problems with branding and marketing. If, um, if someone clicks on a job and they have a terrible experience, they're gonna fill into my cost. But I'll never know that that person was interested. They just didn't feel like signing up and registering their name before applying. Or they'd had a bad mobile experience or they started and they forgot about it cuz they were busy. Cuz you know, they lost, uh, connectivity. So it's very, very hard to do attribution and our, we tend to borrow stuff from marketing and not understand that even marketing struggles with that. I, I honestly, I don't, I don't do stuff from attribution. Um, it's deterministic data. I don't wanna blow people's mind and say you shouldn't pay attention to that. But like, even understanding analytics is a lot harder because we're not digging into it.
(13:59):
We don't speak data in general. And when you have someone, how do I explain it? Perfect example. Referrals are a number one source. They're better, they smell better, they're liked better, they're cheaper. You're the VP and you're telling the CEO referrals are a number one source when you say it like that, you've just told the c e that your budget is worthless and the hazy memories of your managers are better than all the money you're spending. It's a small difference. But if you approach it and go, because then the data says that referrals are number one source, that's not you. That's not how that stuff works. So we think that we're speaking data, but the truth is, is that we're just looking at spreadsheets and reporting them. If we really understood it, we would be pitching it. Referrals are useful here, but our budget is spent on the hard part of the funnel.
(14:47):
And our question is, are we treating our referrals different than we're treating our indeed. Maybe that's why maybe referrals get quite glove experience and the rest are like, you know, they're like, the dolphin and the tuna nets go away. We don't care about the tuna. That's the dolphin aspect of it. So there's a, um, sorry that's an old joke we should have set up a long time ago, but we, we need to be careful about what we're saying because we are, sometimes we are kids pretending to wear our parents' clothes. And when you really dig into it, we are making ourselves look foolish because we're like, oh yeah, my data source, you know, because we don't understand where it came from. We're just, we're getting ourselves in trouble talking about stuff like that,
Speaker 3 (15:23):
Right? That's, that's an outstanding point. I, one, one of the examples I like is, uh, the career site just kind of part of the tech stack and how the career site becomes an identified source in the ats,
Speaker 2 (15:39):
Right? <laugh>.
Speaker 3 (15:40):
But how did people ever find that career site? And you know, it, did it come from Google? Did it come from indeed, did it come from social sharing? Is it word of mouth, right? You need to have those attributes. I was, and this is a number of years ago, but a career site operator was, was showing attribution and showed that 50 some percent of the applicants came from the career site and that career builder was this really small number, 3%. And somebody said, well how did they get to the career site? And you work it backwards and it's like they, they found it from career builder. So it's like, you know, maybe job boards are dead because the career sites have taken over the,
Speaker 2 (16:16):
That's a very important, um, when you're doing an audit, when I'm sitting with a client walking 'em through it, there's, there's really two ways to do it. For those of us who really do high volume and we're all integrated, you click into it. Indeed you get native apply from Google or something like that and you, you can track that. You know exactly where it's coming from. A lot of companies though push people to their career site because it's not a direct integration. They're pushing that traffic and then trying to convert that traffic. And that's exactly the problem in the website to the executives, it looks like a career. But uh, when you look at someone like, um, college recruiter or job case or a good number of Google ads and others, they're pushing traffic to your site or apply on the site, well that doesn't mean that it is your career site. So sometimes when we're discussing this, we have to start off with, it's like everything recruiting, it depends, but those are two big categories that are different. When you hear someone say 92% of your traffic or higher is not converting. Was that you guys? Isn't that you guys who say that? Was that, is that a app cast?
Speaker 3 (17:15):
One of the
Speaker 2 (17:15):
Reports
Speaker 3 (17:17):
We all, I think we all talk about it, the data that it's derived from is outcasts, uh, reports, right? Showing
Speaker 2 (17:23):
90 if you're sending traffic to your site, but does that counts bounce rates? So here, here's how it gets confusing. My current website, uh, the, the career site that we set up, I don't wanna mention the vendor cuz I don't like them, but, um, I, I get 75% of the people who start an application finish it. Those are astoundingly good numbers, right? But the truth is I only get 33% because I just said starting the application, if you're counting the traffic to the website, you gotta count the bounce rate. So if I'm sending traffic, I convert 33% of the traffic that hits the site, but 75% of the people start that process. Those are two very, very different numbers in trying to apply cost per application to it. And and this starts getting into how well do you know your website? Do you have Google analytics set up?
(18:10):
You're looking at your dashboard, it won't show up in your ats and now you have disparate systems and you're trying to compare like, is 33% good? Is 20% good? Like what does that, what does that 8% of conversion? It gets very confusing because we're not comparing apples to apples. A lot of times we do, but we don't even know what is, you count bounce traffic, why would you count bounce traffic? Let's block traffic anyway. Why would you count that? Well now you have to be an expert in internet analytics to be a TA leader, but you can't be. But
Speaker 3 (18:45):
So it's interesting the, for a number of years, recruitment marketing I think was synonymous with branding, right? Call it Yeah. Employer value position and you know, making the stuff that's pretty and so forth. But you're talking about, you know, the more nerdy stuff that's just the data. Uh, where does recruitment marketing begin and end in your mind? What is like what is, what is, what is the bucket? Yeah,
Speaker 2 (19:10):
I get, uh, I'm gonna get yelled at this a lot because I'm coming in late to it, but I look at it the same way that social media was. So employer branding, if you look at their budgets has been, so look, your traditional recruitment marketing, if you go way back, um, I can make fun of Scott, but way back to Scott's age, it was posting jobs in newspapers. It was creating the ads. And then as we started going online, it was creating ads and posting jobs, right? That was recruitment marketing. As digital became to take over the world on the B2B and B2C sides, we have these other opportunities. So for me, I like to back up a little. Recruitment marketing is anything you do that's trying to attract, uh, um, candidates, but to me recruitment advertising is job posting. Uh, no one uses that word, but to me, you, you have to, what I do, uh, with App Gas and Pando and a Indeed and z and talent.com and all the others, if you're posting to a job board, to me that's recruitment advertising that takes data.
(20:04):
Um, and understanding how things are posted, algorithms, integrations, tech stacks, employer branding is closer to what we would call traditional marketing, which is, um, candidate experience surveys, um, the right words, value propositions. To me it's the creative side. You would split this into creative and digital if you were in a regular marketing firm. But then you have recruitment marketing, which is different. So employ employer branding is the preso and recruitment advertising is your paid traffic to me. Recruitment marketing is your emails, your uh, local marketing, your textual apply to me, it's marketing. So I split it into three different areas that we're gonna end up with. And this is before you get to fraud and analytics. So it's employer branding is the pre-soak. What do people think of you? And the hardest to attribute, but right now it's popular because they basically copy, they're like junior marketers, right?
(20:59):
Um, recruitment advertising is what few of us are doing now, which is how do I drive candidates at high volume or spend with job boards? And then you have recruitment marketing, which is, it's quite frankly, it's not done much by us, it's done individually, but you'll get people who get really good at, I have a database, how do I reach out to people? So that'd be closer to outbound, like something that Higher Easy is doing. Um, how do I do once I have that database advertising brings them in when marketing reaches out and employee branding is the pre-soak that makes everything look good. If that makes sense.
Speaker 3 (21:31):
Sure. So stitching it all together, what do you call the whole thing as one Unified
Speaker 2 (21:36):
Talent acquisition? <laugh>. Amen. There you go. Because they won't let us out of hr. So we're stuck is an operations section. <laugh>, there's a whole history about that. You know, TA appeared in 2004, 2005. Um, we went nuts as personnel in the nineties and finance was like, you're spending too much. So they pulled everything back, started doing the VMSs, then the MSPs and finance started controlling what was happening with staffing. And at that time it and marketing were swallowing up the world. The budgets were growing too much. So if you look at what happened in the big companies, basically the coo there's some talk about recruiting, moving into sales or marketing cuz we're so much different than hr. HR is about benefits and getting your check every well and doing compliance recruiting is this cool, innovative, we're like a sales team and they wanted to take recruiting out and a couple companies tried and the COOs were like, no, we're not losing another part of our budget.
(22:30):
We'll start calling you ta. So it was a reaction to all the resumes coming in and building in-house, in-house recruiting agencies basically. So if you look at the Google trends, about 2004, 2005 TA's created and then 10 years later now we assume it's always been around. We're not hr, we're not personnel, we're we're talent acquisition. It's an entirely different department. And now we we're finally getting the budget respect cuz we're starting to mature, right? So it, it definitely is different, but I say junior marketers, I'm not trying to bust on employer branding, but there is a difference. There's a reason marketing doesn't like us, uh, because they are fancy and pretty and have giant budgets and we have to do real work as we get better and copy what they're doing. It's gonna be exciting cuz I see what's happening in this industry right now. Exactly what I saw 15 years ago, which is great for me cuz I don't have to think again for another decade. But we have the playbook. We know what's going to happen because we can see the crisis and B2B and b2c and we can like lick, we can avoid some of those. Like they, they were the older brother going through the wall. Now we know how to sneak out around our parents.
Speaker 3 (23:37):
So you said we can see what's gonna happen because the, you were walking down a similar path to what happened in general 10, 15 years ago, right?
Speaker 2 (23:47):
Right. Well
Speaker 3 (23:48):
One of the things that's happened in general marketing is there's been massive consolidation, right? So if you want, you wanna go find customers that are in market, you go to Google, right? It's, there isn't really, there aren't a lot of choices in the, in that matter, if you want to go manufacture demand, you might start working in social and and display, but the actual, the actual capture demand is really a search function. Do you think that that's ultimately what's gonna happen here? You mentioned a handful of other companies in a space like college recruiter and job case, you know, there, there are many, many job boards in the world, um, is indeed ultimately gonna consume the whole market. Is it, does it become two or three major players like LinkedIn and, and Indeed and one other? What, what is, what is your perspective on, on where that part of the market's headed?
Speaker 2 (24:43):
Well, if you look historically, the answer is no. You know, monster was number one and then CareerBuilder came along and paid a bunch of CEO's tickets to sports games and they became number one and then indeed adopted the pay-per-click model and then hired 5,000 people and they became number one. And somewhere along the way LinkedIn hired two or 3000 salespeople. They're actually bigger than indeed. You know, those are eight, $10 billion companies that are out there. Um, so the answer is no. There's no way for somebody to own that market entirely. Um, because they're, they're looking at different things. So some companies have abandon the idea of tracking and they just wanna push traffic to you. Other ones want to focus on this quality of applicant, but they've reached a hard stop because the issue is not the vendors, the issue is us in ta. So the, the beauty of what happened with TA was created was we had all these staffing firms, we could train people up and then they went inside that, that was the whole point of it is there's plenty of people to call from, from Apple one to Robert, half to all the rest.
(25:42):
They were doing the training and development for us when digital agencies started and companies started building these digital teams in-house. They had thousands of agencies where you'd go to an agency, you'd learn something, you work for a client and they would build it in-house. There's only a handful of recruitment, advertising, recruitment, marketing agencies that are out there. There aren't thousands, there isn't enough to fill the departments of the major, uh, you know, just the Fortune 500. There's not enough out there. So we're in a different place where there's no one that can do the work, which means that an HR traditionally does lose about half of their people whenever there's a slow cycle. But now that we have budgets, we're in this existential crisis where we're starting to have finance and legal and marketing look at what we're doing and going, you know, I wouldn't mind being in HR cause I could be a superstar.
(26:29):
I've had over a hundred million dollar budget. I can do a $2 million one. If we don't get better on our processes and our data and our software and our tech, someone else is gonna come in and take over. And what's interesting about that is because we can't pull from other agencies all gonna be home-built. So I don't, I don't think Indeed can do much more, um, because we won't let them, I, I'm not giving my data to indeed. They ask for it. They want you on their platform, but why would I, why would I give them the data as opposed to keeping it for myself? They can't analyze quality of hire until I analyze quality of hire. And right now we just don't have that. We're building it. Lots of great people, analytics firms out there. Uh, shout out to Richard Rosenau from one model.
(27:10):
Um, uh, my buddy Brian Felds doing stuff with Anaplan and Workday. He actually loves Workday. But if you saw it, you'd be like, oh my God, there's workforce planning really going on. As we, as we figured out on our side, the vendors are actually going to, they're gonna have to pick a path. Are we gonna be traffic? Are we gonna be applicant? Are we gonna go all the way to the higher, there's no way for an app cast or a Pando to do that. So you basically we're gonna have to have better ta folks for vendors to work with. So this is an internal problem that we'll have to solve. This is why I'm not worried about industry consolidation because they have to grow revenue. We have to get better.
Speaker 3 (27:50):
Right. So you're saying there isn't like a, there isn't the, the capacity to build a Google Analytics that's like a one size fits everybody type of just generic, not
Speaker 2 (27:59):
Analytics, not a, not a chance. It'll, it'll never happen. Not to mention that Google's already themselves struggling with search and others here. Here's that, uh, here's the thing that people don't realize about pay-per-click. It is a marvelous system. It is really, really good. And then it dies like they think now because the cycles that pay-per-click always will be there. But pay per click's great. In the beginning. People don't remember when they were, you know, 1 cent clicks on Google where you could get dollar conversions for your thousand dollars, high thousand, thousand dollar, uh, purchases on Google. Now it's 10, 20, 50. I mean look at your cost for Facebook. CPC is only as good as your dumbest competitor. Once everybody gets in there, then you move to programmatic and then eventually the costs are so high you have to leave pay-per-click and move into quality, which is what they call conversion for pay per click for SEO and s e m this is our version as pay application.
(28:53):
We basically followed paper application saying, I don't want to, I don't wanna do pay-per-click anymore. I wanna pay for quality. That's exactly what happened to the s e EM and seo, uh, uh, worlds. So knowing that what happens next, but we're watching what's happening with Google. They're terrified about losing their advertising results. They're massive fraud problems in the B2B world. Um, and they're, they're starting to realize, hey, maybe I shouldn't send seven cadences to the same person that worked back in 2002, but hi Alex makes you not look at the email. It's no longer a best practice cuz so many people do it. We're gonna have to go back to face-to-face. We're gonna have to recreate what it takes to get a candidate in because you can't, you can't just mask email people now you've gotta start customizing it. You have to know the right answer and you're, you're not gonna get this information from your analytics. You're gonna have to go to people who know your full life cycle and what really happened and aren't entering the databases, which means we're gonna start integrating hiring managers and ta or you just cause you're wasting money and you're not gonna hire. So it'll be real. It's really fascinating and interesting for us. It's a great time to be there. So
Speaker 3 (30:02):
You, you mentioned in there the evolving, essentially the evolving business model. Uh, maybe can you touch on, talk to maybe some of the, the evol the evolutions that are happening right now? So Indeed has the healthy budget, right? Um, the, you know, the, the mixture between job distribution and job boarding that, you know, ZipRecruiter kind of speaks to. Maybe talk about what, talk about what you see works well, what levers you've pulled, what levers you've lost, what you anticipate gaining, like speak, start with indeed. What are you, what are you feeling and seeing there? Right?
Speaker 2 (30:41):
So everybody freaked out about CPAs. Um, is that cost per applications start changing the way that they were going to hire. And that was a concern for the small businesses that weren't paying attention. All of a sudden they'd get a $60 applicant when they were getting a $5 applicant. That wasn't the big disturbing. That was, that was bad for people who weren't paying attention to how they build campaigns. But that wasn't the big one. The big one is healthy budget. It's the budget minimum. Because what's happening is it's so easily and in the world of ai, like we have now, it's so easy to post jobs. It's someone will say, I'll throw a thousand jobs up cuz what's the problem of doing so by instituting budget minimums indeed saying there are too many jobs on our site that are getting zero clicks. So if you want to do, well, if you want the algorithm to reward you with qualified applicants, you have to have more clicks to less jobs.
(31:31):
That is not something we're used to doing because as we all know, if you want more, you just do more, right? You need to hire more. You just hire 10 more recruiters, you need more revenue, you just hire more salespeople. The idea that we actually have to generate less traffic at a higher cost is brand new to us. So we have to start paying attention to how we're posting jobs, which is not something anyone has time to do. It is, it's like copywriting for the website. It's the last thing you think about. But if you wanna fix your spend and you pay attention to the, the number of jobs and the way you post it and the time you're posting it, you can drop your budgeted spend down 20% and you're just not wasting, you're not posting jobs that no one's clicking on. That's the biggest thing that's happening with Indeed right now.
(32:13):
We need to post less jobs there, but that'll freak someone out because they, this is their whole, they want one job to one posting that, that's a huge aspect because we have so much waste. It's hard for us to understand by cost would up 20% and you're like, why? Where? Well, if you're dealing with a lot of jobs on a lot of spreadsheets and you're looking at 300 jobs, that's a lot harder than analyzing 60 jobs. Um, perfect example, I did a, I did a a program. We were looking for retail, uh, demo, uh, merchandisers. We had 220, uh, jobs, most of 180 locations. When I look at the top level, hey, look how well we're doing. Look how cheap our costs are. We drove 18,000 leads this month. When I dug into it, 30% of those jobs got zero applicants and less than 50% of them got more than five.
(33:01):
Why am I posting those other half of those jobs? So I think I'm doing great is we're having our reports and we're sharing with clients, we're talking through. The truth is, a lot of those jobs weren't getting anything. So we're just doing a bunch of admin work and getting fake cost. That's a huge problem that you need time to fix. And right now they've cut ta staffs, no one has the time to individually look at those jobs. We just wanna look at the top level of the dashboard. That's your biggest mistake on a deed. Zip is a different, zip is a different, I like, I like zip for their flexibility. We
Speaker 3 (33:31):
Move on. Jen, before we move on, what, what do you do about it, right? So like in the past you used to be able to change bids, right? And now you have this minimum amount. What, what are this, what are the, what are the tools that you have to use to actually drive performance, even if you're looking at six jobs and not 60? I mean, what, what are you doing on a day-to-day basis to, to create impact on those key metrics that you were mentioned?
Speaker 2 (33:59):
I'm copying the exact same thing we did in email marketing and pay per click, which is you find someone who's really good at spreadsheets that loves that they could have been an accountant, and you give them time, you, you stop them. You don't make that person close to the front line. You don't let managers or executives tell you they need to change stuff. Their sole job is looking over the campaigns and the results and trying to figure out where am I not posting these correctly? They have to look at every job. They have to go in and say, to be posted correctly on the website, they have to look at the integration. They need time and protection so they can figure out where am I making these glaring errors that are costing me so much? We tend to look at it as here's my budget, and then a manager says, I need people in New Orleans, let's put more money there.
(34:42):
Well that's, that's putting, you know, fires out with a hose, you're ignoring the 80% that's really covering. So you have to fix your 80%. That's supposed to be easy with automation and that means you have to have somebody who's just staring at that every day. And if you're doing it right, you do two, three times. So we have two or three people. I have an auditing team. That's what they're looking at. They're just looking, Hey, is something going wrong? They're being prescriptive, prescriptive. This is what happens from a probabilistic standpoint. When we post this campaign, these are the results. Let's change up what's happening.
Speaker 3 (35:12):
What are the three things? There probably are 30 things, but maybe what are the three things that show up most often in that audit that people should be putting into their head? Like, I need to be looking at this, this, and this at every one of these jobs to make sure that
Speaker 2 (35:25):
Comparable titles, uh, so titles, terrible titles, um, they're basically using titers titles as filters and it's not working for them. Um, uh, the, a lack of segmentation. If you're posting jobs and they're showing up in Canada and California, you're really hurting yourself because Canada will burn through your budget in the first hour and they'll never get to California. So people not segmenting based on areas. Um, and the third thing is probably has to do with, um, uh, how those campaigns are set up. You, you, you have, you have to decide if you're putting a job up and down, how quickly the, there's a difference. It is a job up 30 days or three days. And by not grouping those in those campaigns correctly, you're basically overpaying for some and underpaying you're just applying this bland average across. So you've gotta get more detailed in how you're posting the jobs. Should this job be up? Does it need a hundred applicants or does it need five? And then how do you know whether or not you should be using that? So website, website for the top numbers, but it's details that matter.
Speaker 3 (36:28):
Yeah, I, so, so it's the first comment I'm gonna make is if you go to any job board, the first thing that they want you to do is sign up for a job alert. And it really hinges on two things. What are you looking for and where, and, and like your point about focusing first in on title I think is a really good one. Let's unpack that a little bit. What makes a good title and what makes the terrible title?
Speaker 2 (36:52):
So it depends on what you want from at the end, but a good title in advertising is short and clear and the other people know what it is. So if you're looking for housekeeping,
Speaker 3 (37:02):
Like a superstar ninja is not a good, not a good
Speaker 2 (37:05):
Title because no one searches that we search by titles. The superstar ninja's not helping you. And if you call it for example, uh, a guest environment associate, that's difficult because no one searches for that because it's a housekeeper. But now you have a problem. How do you spell housekeeper? Is it one word or two? Anybody wanna throw that? Is it one word or two?
Speaker 3 (37:28):
Well, it's, it doesn't matter what the
Speaker 2 (37:29):
Answer is, <laugh>. It's what they said. It's what the users themselves say. It's their behavior. It's not what we want or us being professional or our branding. It's what they want. What are they searching for? So this is why everybody's so focused with skills, because titles is too hard because everybody wants to call themselves something different. And if it's competitive,
Speaker 5 (37:50):
We, sorry to interrupt you, Jim, but hi Nicole from Jobs thing, but we had a, we had a client, uh, not here at Joby, but I had a client over at Aass who advertised with dieticians and there's two different ways to spell dietician. And so we literally decided we needed to advertise all the jobs with both spellings, um, because of the search, because how do you predict how somebody's gonna spell dietician? Um, so, you know, it's a, it's an interesting, yeah, it's an interesting challenge.
Speaker 2 (38:18):
You could have it, you know, we can't do title expansion anymore or, uh, I see alludes on the call. So, uh, allude is the HR director of FC Dallas and he was talking to us yesterday. When you're looking for bilingual folks, you'd have to put it in English and Spanish because that's how they learned. And it's something as simple as in your application, he mentioned it's okay to say this, right? Allude, you can nod. Yes, absolutely. You have to put name and number because it's not, it's not that they can't read it, it's telling them I understand how you learned and what it gives them a sense of comfort that you understand them and that you're not just reaching out and being that person who's doing it. So little things like that, what is it that, just basically UX texting, right? What's what is your candidate behavior?
(38:59):
What's actually occurring? And we don't have a lot of AV testers. We don't have time because every job is different. You can't compare New Orleans and Charlotte. Um, you can't compare February and August and you can't because it's a question of how much is paying, what's the company brand? It's very difficult, but you have to, you, you just take your best shot at it and be prepared to make a lot of changes. I mean, that's the thing that we do so well, is I, I test everything. Um, I don't believe anything. I just test it. And you just go by your results. You know what you do and over time you get better results rather than making some assumption.
Speaker 6 (39:34):
So one thing that I was, as I, I had HR for FC Dallas and as Jim knows, um, right now we're ramping up for 2026, the World Cup that is going to be hosted here. So I start ramping up as of right now in regards to building up my database for recruiting. We all know that we are an environment where you have a lot of Spanish speaking individuals in the US and that's their primary language. So what we have done as far as HR and marketing and recruiting, everything is done in both languages. Okay? So Jim says the minute that you don't touch those candidates on your database, you start losing interest. So one thing that I've done, or I have my recruiter do, or HR generalist assistant Clark, is, and even I do, we touch our candidates daily, either through instant messaging and we do it in both languages. And that helps out, that helps us keep our candidates fresh because we hire about five, 600 people through game day season in our soccer fields. So we always have people coming in and out.
Speaker 3 (40:45):
Yeah, you're, you're, you have at least one side benefit, which is they get a once in a lifetime opportunity to work at the, uh, at the World Cup, right? So I mean there is that too <laugh>, which is good, right? Everybody has some good story to talk about. Uh,
Speaker 5 (41:00):
Alex wants to know if you, you have a job for him basically is what he's saying.
Speaker 2 (41:06):
Can you get him out in the parking lot? Cause you have him taking parking tickets,
Speaker 6 (41:09):
Right? So one of the things right now, um, that we have quite a bit of candidates looking for is, you know, I see housekeeping custodians, we've been very successful. What you have to do because we, we currently were outsourcing all that through third party, okay? Through outside vendor. And we had a total 75 housekeeping on game days. I reduced that to 20. But you really have to get a niche to get those individuals once you hit that niche market of housekeeping, janitorial services, those individuals, you have to use them. Your, you have to use those individuals to yourself as an advantage to help recruit for you. So you're not having to spend on Indeed, you're not having to spend on mantra and you can use that money for higher level positions as well,
Speaker 2 (42:06):
Right? That's a big point. Making budgets fungible, we don't have that right now. The one of the mistakes that we make is you can't just cut your Indeed budget. You can't just cut your, you can't just, oh, we're cutting off this vendor, we're using it. You have to figure out how do I then apply that to somewhere else? We've got something called referral pain in our industry where we're trying to always work from the top down. We should be solving the problems of 80% of our jobs and then using the rest of that budget, we have to explain that the purpose of that budget is solving the hard 20%. You cannot find dormant in Nashville, but you can find engineers because Nashville's grown so much, it's very difficult to do. You can find lots of dormant in Texas, but it's difficult to find someone who wants to go outside because it's a hundred degrees.
(42:49):
So it, it's a matter of you have to truly understand actual recruiting. And in the last 20 years we have made the mistake of segmenting all of our recruiting. So it's easy for guys my age cuz we did full life cycle. We were there, we had the time to learn. A lot of people in the last 10, 15 years didn't get the memo of sourcing is tied into advertising, is tied into employer brand, it's tied into retention. They're only taught to do one thing. And that's one of the problems we have. When you look at all these recruiters looking for jobs online, you look at what they actually did and they've got three or four years at a big company. They were just sorting resumes. But the, the assumption is that they're headhunters. I'd literally banned the word recruiter from a couple of organizations because when a manager who's in his, they're in his, our thirties or forties here, is that they think recruiter. But if all they're doing is going through Indeed and zip and not even talking to candidates, they're not gonna know full life cycle. So our words sometimes trip us up because we're supposed to know everything, but we're only training people to do small portions of business. And that's, that's where we tend to make a lot of mistakes.
Speaker 3 (43:54):
So I wanna, you, you touched on three things. You said title, location, and then, and then, um,
Speaker 2 (44:01):
Segmenting.
Speaker 3 (44:02):
Segmenting. Uh, so dive a little deeper into the location piece. Like what, when you're talking about segmenting locations, what is it that you're, what is it that you're talking, what is it that you're focused on? Again, going back to that person who's doing their audit, what people from in here take away and start working on this afternoon?
Speaker 2 (44:21):
Um, but one is we like to write one check to our vendors and then have our vendors solve everything. And that is a mistake. Um, you've got to be involved if you wanna save more money and get better results, you have to start knowing what locations are. So Kansas City, Missouri, if you're in Kansas City, you know Overland Park, which is a rich suburb and the outsides in Kansas, Overland Park is 15 miles long and very skinny. So if you're looking at a 25 mile radius of your postings and you put Overland Park that showing, is it the middle of it? Is it the north? Are you doing it by zip code? You can get people way out in the country or you could be going all the way into the city. And those people are not driving to Overland Park. We don't think about that.
(45:01):
Indeed. Never thought about that. We were doing some UX stuff. They're like, why would you care where somebody was? I'm like traffic public transportation. If you work in Pittsburgh, you have to know that no one's crossing the bread bridge and tu for less than $20 an hour. You have to push east because it's too difficult to get across. New York City is not New Jersey. You have to actually know what happens on the ground where people travel from, um, where they're using public transportation or your ads are basically going to the wrong people. You can cast 50 miles in Arizona cause they'll drive there. But then you have to make sure that everyone's got a car, right? So thinking about location is not just you breaking it up by zip code or state. Why would you break it up by state? Do you think Chicago is the same as Springfield or that Sacramento is the same thing as, as San Diego we get with the big states, but we don't think that Delaware might actually be part of, you know, fine, I don't know anything about Delaware, but you have to understand your location.
(45:57):
We used to have maps on our walls now we stare at titles and we stare at spreadsheets and then we're confused why we're not very good at our campaigns. It's cuz we don't actually know recruiting 25 miles in Los Angeles is an hour and a half. It's 25 minutes in Dallas as managing going the right direction. But th that's where knowing what's actually occurring, they've got some great analytics now that are out there that actually tell you where your people are coming from. So, and my, my people are coming from this apartment complex but are coming from this zip code they're picturing from this bus stop, you know, they're taking this train ride in. You have to know where your people that you wanna hire or that your competitors are. That is so far beyond, let me post a job and a title, but that's the importance of location. Can people afford to work where I'm asking him to come work?
Speaker 3 (46:49):
Super interesting story. Uh, a friend of mine does, uh, a large, large, um, workforce analytics and he has determined that he can predict the likelihood of somebody quitting in six months based upon the time it takes them to commute to the job and the amount of money they make. There's a direct correlation. So that's fascinating point, right? So number one and number two really are all sum could be simply summarized as understand and know the person you're trying to recruit, right? Yeah.
Speaker 2 (47:20):
User generated content
Speaker 3 (47:21):
And where they are.
Speaker 2 (47:23):
I get, I get in trouble when I say things like, I don't care what the CEO fix. I don't, I care what the person's trying to apply things. You have to, it's called candidate centric advertising. It doesn't mean you're making them the center of the universe, it's just you're actually trying to figure out who they are. In marketing, we call that personas. Our problem is cuz we borrow stuff from marketing, you'll see someone on stage go, we did personas. Well there's a question that comes after that and what happened next? And they're like, what? Well we have personas. What did you do with them? Well we made them and did what we presented them. No, no, no. The whole point is the persona's supposed to tell you who's applying, which then helps with all kinds of things. Are we picking the wrong people? Are we not advertising the right space?
(48:03):
You have to be sympathetic to what they're doing and you have to ask your own people. See, one of the challenges we have when you look at our data is we only, we have survivor bias. We only look at the people we hire. If you really wanna get at analytics, you can look at everybody who applied, where they went, where people left, because that tells you the whole amount. It's like benchmarking your best people. That doesn't help you. You need to benchmark your best and your worst to figure out what's the difference between them when you do that in sales. Yeah, but that this is hard. This is real work, it being, uh, but this is what they're doing in marketing and psychology and all the others. We have to start applying that and we have to have the budget and the people internally for it. And this is cuz it's fascinating, but boy does it make a difference when you understand the world, you don't have said all of it. You just have to be a little bit better than everybody else and your results are phenomenal. And then they call you things like the whisperer
Speaker 3 (48:55):
<laugh>. So the third item, uh, I, this is where I think the whisperer actually is. Maybe the most insightful part. You're alluding to the idea on the budget and, and spend part that you put jobs up and down, limited number of days. What are, what do you do? What's, what's actually happening underneath the covers there that you're, that you're implementing?
Speaker 2 (49:19):
From my side, I do it from what's called probabilistic. I don't worry about what the UI is telling me, I don't believe in the UI and as user interface. When it says, for example, if you're looking at a deed and it says pick max, balance target, c p a, or, uh, just trying to figure out what you want or targeted number of applications, we think we understand those words because we know the dictionary definition of a balance is pretty simple, right? The question is, is what is balance actually mean? When I would say that, I mean, what is it doing to your campaign? What signals is it giving that, how is that impacting your choices? So you have to stop doing what you're told. Instead ask, if I click this button, what's going to happen? So you have to get good at posting so that you have a baseline.
(50:03):
You begin testing it. And then you ask yourself, okay, if I run this campaign, what's the impact of changing it every day? I can tell you right now, if you're in there playing with your campaigns every day, you're getting terrible results cuz you're causing the algorithm to stutter. That's what the healthy budget of initiative is done. That's why they're focused on it. It's borrowed from Google. Google used to call, have a healthy budget, it sounds like, spend more money. But what they really mean is we're to figure out how best to serve you. If you're in there tinkering all the time, it can never learn. So you're not gonna get the results that you're looking for. So you have to figure out how long can I post? Is it five days? Is it seven days? Is it 30 days? You have to know what you're doing.
(50:44):
Uh, you, you have to know what you're changing. If you're tinker with everything, you're never gonna know. Um, and that's just, that gets so advanced. This is where like Leah and I will start arguing and, and, uh, <laugh>, we'll say, look at this, look at that. Um, yeah, if you're gonna be doing that, you need some full-time consultants and you need some tech background to understand it. But in the meantime, quit futzing with your stuff. Keep it simple. Focus on what you're doing, your posts, your campaigns, have a reason for it so that if something's weird, you can change and at least know why you made the change. It's not as simple as just changing the title. Maybe that's not the problem. Are you tracking it? Are you doing real AB testing? I don't think you need to do that. You just need to, what are the stupid things that you're doing? What's the campaign that spent 10,000 that you shouldn't have? What did you do there? That's the, that's the main stuff people should take away is let's take a look what we're doing and let's stop doing the stupid things. You have to know what they are first.
Speaker 3 (51:40):
Right? So understand, understand what the performance data is and how it's ma matching up against a predefined goal. Yes. Right? And make sure that you're following through and making contact with the people that
Speaker 2 (51:54):
Start with the end. Start with the end, uh, and and in sight. That that's really what do you really want? And the answer is that I want perfect candidates that immediately take the job at a low price. I don't have to think about, that's not a goal. It's do I want more applicants? Am I in a low supply area or high supply area? Um, if there's only 500 people in the county, you're not gonna get 500 applications. So what's the re what's the reasonable success? Let's call it that. And then let's see, do we hit those numbers? And a lot of that's just understanding. It's understanding who's actually on the platforms. Um, what are we getting from zip, what are we getting from talent.com? Are we focused on a deed a lot, but what are you getting from them that's different? Um, and it's a matter of testing it, right? It's not just picking a vendor, it's testing it and then saying, how much control do they allow us?
Speaker 3 (52:43):
How do you look at the other job boards? Are they, are they the same but just smaller or are they different? Like how do you approach the, the ecosystem of, of the job board space, so to
Speaker 2 (52:55):
Speak? So the magic is understanding who has organic traffic or who has a specific focus, right? So the, the challenge with working with multiple vendors is they all want the same thing, which is more spin. And the dirty secret is a lot of them are trading traffic back and forth. So you need to figure out who has organic traffic and your area. Some of them will be better at, at uh, like zips, great for skilled trades. Zips great for a lot of warehouse stuff because ZipRecruiter advertises on podcasts and on television, which is significantly different than Indeed was doing. Indeed did a lot of the online stuff cuz they captured all the traffic. Where is your job board advertising? Where are their organic traffic? Now they wanna obscure it, everybody wants to because they're trading candidates back and forth. But the truth is everybody gets it from Facebook, Google, and as you were mentioning before, polies, they're getting it from the same place.
(53:43):
So what happens when that candidate goes there? If the candidate feels like this is a good place and you track this by your source, if you're going into one and you're seeing 13% of hires from 10% of traffic, that's good. That means that people consider that a good job board. If you're getting lots of traffic, that doesn't matter and it's not converting, is it because they feel like they're passed around in different stages? If they start@talent.com and then end up on your job store, if they start at Google for jobs@attalent.com and end up at your career site, you're thinking of the first time they're hitting as your career site. The truth is they've already gone through three sections and they're already tired. So they have to answer those questions over and over again. What is the candidate journey? That's how I define the dash, the uh, the different places. Um, and, and then it's just fantastic. So real
Speaker 3 (54:29):
Quick, Scott, Scott chiming in, in the chat asking I think a fairly pertinent question to that. How do you evaluate that? How Jim, you're, you're commenting about the, the trading traffic back and forth because you have knowledge of that. How does somebody discover and work that out on their own? Like how do you find out what job cases or organic traffic?
Speaker 2 (54:51):
It's about 15 years in the cia, uh, work some osint techniques, start learning cell engineering. You watch some of the movies you're not supposed to watch. Um, the truth is you're gonna have to find experts to kind of talk through that. It, it doesn't matter what it is. The question is, is this is why you, you're not gonna figure out the data, you're gonna figure out the higher aspect of it, right? So you're gonna have to look at the quality of traffic as it comes in. You're gonna have to commit to it a period of time. And you have to figure out is your process the problem? So if, if say a zuna is sending you something and you have a terrible process, you can't judge the quality of their traffic. Are you treating that traffic the same as your career side traffic? So part of it's, if you understand your process is you can begin to make judgements about which sources work for you and then you just begin testing it.
(55:36):
I I do think that they're all trying to do more. Um, but there's a big problem of fraud that we haven't addressed yet, which is starting to hit us because now we have bigger budgets. How many of those candidates are real? That is not something that people talk about, but it is a huge issue that's about to hit us because I can spin up 5,000 AI profiles on LinkedIn or just out in the world as resumes with a push of a button. Now. Now the question is why, well, what if I want some of that sweet suite ad revenue traffic? That's not something we're prepped for, but my guess is that a few years we'll start to have fraud specialists literally embedded inside of our recruitment advertising teams. We don't have any of those now, but we're gonna get there.
Speaker 3 (56:16):
Yep. There's uh, there's a pretty gigantic chunk of, of really ultimately is mafia money that flows in, flows from the general ad tech role of Google and so forth. Um, yeah that is is coming, coming, coming to a TA budget near you
Speaker 2 (56:33):
And what really, what is LinkedIn and Twitter and others have? They're charging now for verification verified candidates, like the ones in your ats. We're gonna reach a point where old candidates are the best cuz at least you know they're real people. So that'll be very interesting. You know, that's the power of something like a seek out if someone's been in LinkedIn for 15 years, you know they're real, they've been there for two. Are they? Yeah, that's a good question. And we haven't begin to address that.
Speaker 4 (57:00):
That's a different round table <laugh>.
Speaker 2 (57:03):
This
Speaker 3 (57:04):
Is, this is uh, prelude to a future conversation around fraud and your ad budget. So Jim, it's been awesome, awesome conversation. I hopefully everybody has a couple takeaways. Really kind center around, begin with the end in mind. I know the candidate that you're trying to recruit and align your, your budget and your activities to, to find them. Um, a lot of, lot of really cool summary pieces. Lex, do you wanna tell us about what's coming up next month with Grace?
Speaker 4 (57:29):
Do I do? I do. So thank you everybody that joined us today. Um, if you registered you will get a copy of the recording. I will do my best to have it out this afternoon and tomorrow. Keep an eye out for an email to invite you to next month's round table, which is going to feature Grace NI Wash. He's the um, global head of uh, TA at Vertex Pharmaceuticals. We're going to be talking about AI machine learning and data analytics and how they're becoming the new member of your hiring team. Um, and because I've been having a lot of fun this year doing a spin on like classic 90 songs, we are titling it Baby got bought. You are welcome. Please listen to Sir mix a lot, a bunch leading up to this next date. We are very excited. It's going to be on July 27th. Again, that invitation will go out tomorrow for baby got bought with Grace niwa next month. Um, everybody, this was such an awesome conversation today. We had some great questions. I know we couldn't get to all of them so please connect with Jim on LinkedIn. Um, shoot me an email marketing@joby.com if there was anything we didn't cover today and we'll do our best to make sure we get all your questions answered. Okay,
Speaker 3 (58:35):
Thank you. Thanks
Speaker 2 (58:37):
Everyone. Thanks for having me. Good
Speaker 4 (58:38):
Luck with all your searches for your Ninja Rockstar dietician, housekeepers. Have a great day everyone. Bye.